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Property Prices Rising


By anything, Section Member Diaries
Posted on Sun Sep 24, 2006 at 10:36:53 PM EST

It appears from the last advert of qubrex that property prices have begun rising again in Gurgaon. As we approach Diwlai and the FDI story in India continues unabated, it appears that the prices for property are going to keep rising.

As projects at Rs 8000/sq ft are now being launched it is a threshold that will be set and prices awill escalate further to get to this range for normal properties.

It is also evident that the development of the Indian urban areas is not taking place other than builders building small localities, hence some of these colonies are bound to be the focal point of any property worth acquiring and hence builders and their properties will continue to escalate.

I expect Gurgaon properties will further incease by about 30% in another 6 months in the run up to the budget.

< Horticulture/Floriculture/Teacher | My Bad Experience in getting a Gas Connection From Shanti Gas Service, Chakkarpur, (Gurgaon) >

premium for pot holes (none / 0) (#56)
by sumitdas on Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 02:09:51 PM EST

yes property prices are rising in gurgaon because number of potholes have gone up after the monsoon and there is a premium on potholes. ther is a PLC for the areas where the road is non-existent. DLC needs to be added for areas with high power cuts. IFMS is going up for sectors where robberies and thefts are becoming more easily available. NCR of delhi still comands a premium over the rest of the country for being the primary home of thieves and cheats ... historically, and gurgaon is the newly developed centre for cheating.


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High Prices of Property in Gurgaon. (none / 0) (#51)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 10:20:13 AM EST


 Property prices in Gurgaon are very much High.
There is not any comparision of Prices and Quality of flat provided by Builders.
       There are not haiving any basic facilities/Connectivity to city.Communication is the biggest problem.
       Only Rich people are investing in Flats ,and they are the cause of this Price Rise.
  I am surprised,Why Goverment/Courts are sleeping.Why this basic requirement or Common man is being a Business Object.Rich people are making property costlier.Why there is not any action from Govt Side.,Why land is being handed over to Private Builders.,Why They are making common men lives hell.
    These Property Dealer are making situation worst.End User is being looted.No common man can buy a 3 rooms flat for 60 Lakhs or more.
    Every body is saying,people are getting big salaries in IT and other industries,Can anybody tell me how many percentage of people are there out of total slaried men.
It is not right that every body is getting 15 L per annum.There are lots of common men who are getting  < 15 L  Starting from 1L.Can they afford a two bedroom flat in Gurgaon.

  When they will be able to buy a flat in gurgaon?Can they ever be able?
Property Dealers will always say "Prices will always rise..".Those who have INVESTED into property..will always say same thing..Because they want to earn  more and more..Yes they have right to do so..untill and unless there is ANY INITIATIVE TAKEN by GOVERNMENT..
  In each and every budget..Lots of taxes are being introduced on us,so that country can Grow..
What is this growth?
What about that BLACK MONEY...behind this RISING PRICE of PROPERTY????
Where is TAX Department?
Every body is sleeping..



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LIFE IS CRUEL (none / 0) (#48)
by Unregistered Visitors on Thu Nov 02, 2006 at 02:46:14 AM EST

Dear all,
I am in dubai.
Last year this time while i was going through this site i saw same comments and website painted red all over for emminent crash in prices.I Took a risk and  purchased a plot for 16500/Sq Yd in Malibu Town. Today it is selling for 45000 /Sq Yd. even if market crash 100 % fom here i will still not loose money,now would i ?????
.and as far enduser and investment debate is concerned pl pay a visit to Dubai this notion wil be lost for ever, as here with 88 % of work force being expatriates and still houses are selling like crazy with rates being around 20000/Sq Feet ,
yeah it is twenty thousand INR i did not put an extra zero by mistake.

so bottom line buy if you can pay,if you cannot then its OK ,not every body can now own a BMW and drive it, now can they ????
This is the diffrence "some are rich and some are poor",If we think we cannot buy today then work more hard take bigger risk and then take what is most important.
""" LEAP OF FAITH """""
You will succed or fail what else can happen??
Atleast you would have tried.
FEAR OF GOING WRONG ON OUR DECISION IS THE BIGGEST FEAR WE HAVE
THINK??????
Cheers



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Reality (none / 0) (#45)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Oct 14, 2006 at 07:48:03 PM EST

If investors can afford to buy and hold 5-10 properties who NEEDS END USERS ...
BY INVESTORS I MEAN PEOPLE WHO USE THEIR OWN MONEY TO BUY PROPERTIES NOT BORROWED MONEY FROM BANKS.

There are more than a few thousand such people who are investing in GURGAON ...

SO EVEN IF NOT A SINGLE END USER BUYS THE properties, investors will buy them all.

NOW WHEN THERE WILL BE ACTUAL USER IN THE MARKET, he will not get a single property as the investors have all the properties in their hand he will be left with no option but to keep on bidding high till some investor decides he should help the end user and sell his property to him at a high premium.

SO KEEP ON DREAMING ABOUT THE PROPERTY PRICES CRASHING .. YOu would be lucky if you can buy the property at 50% higher price than todays price in an years time.

MY ADVICE IS KEEP ON WAITING, maybe you can buy the same property you r getting today at 5000 psf at 10000 psf in a couple of years.

STOCK MARKET IS AT 12770 there were people talking about the stock market crash and market touching 4000 by december --- KEEP ON DREAMING

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Gurgaon housing prices will decline (none / 0) (#50)
by Unregistered Visitors on Thu Dec 14, 2006 at 05:50:57 AM EST

Gurgaon property prices will decline by over 15 to 20% over the next 6 to 8 months for the following resons:

  1. Artificial shortage been created by brokers and NRIs
  2. ICICI Bank raising home loan rates to over 10%. This means a loan of 50,000 for 20 years would result in an EMI of approx. 48-49K, which was 38-39K (7-8%) about an year or so back.
  3. There are no immediate signs of interest rates easing, with inflation howering over 5%.
  4. Those who have taken loans may just want to sell of their flats to get rid of hefty installments (black and white mix will keep genuine buyers still at bay, till the component of white increases).
5)Builders delaying completion of new apartments to create artificial shortage and meet demand with supply, at the same time trying to increase prices. This may not last for long as the debt of such builders will increase further. Many builders resorting to IPOs to pay off their debts. This is creating another artificial boom in the real estate stock prices (trading at a P/E ratio of over 150, ideal is less than 30). Most volatile sector to be in. Market crash will impact the sector the most, with builders having no other option to raise further money but by making flats available. Also, inflationary hikes will increase building costs. Stock market will see a bust in April-May timeframe.
6) Not many real commercial complexes coming up in Gurgaon, as such number of executives not likely to increase at more than 10%. With supply expected to increase, demand expected to decline (both new homes and rented homes), both rental prices and new home as well as existing home prices will decline by 15 to 20%.



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people like u (none / 0) (#46)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Oct 14, 2006 at 11:21:20 PM EST

the trouble with people like u is that u havent ever 'earned' money........an end user wud be someone who has toiled and made money, not gotten in in inheritance or as a lottery/lucky investment.

for such a person to put in all his hard earned savings, the value of which he fully realizes in terms of effort/hard work/long hrs spent/failures/blood/toil/sweat , its going to be a very very huge step.

so keep happy - think of all ur shortcuts and quote them - think of the sensex, think of ur investments, think of ur paper wealth, laugh at people who still feel 35 lakhs for a 3 bhk is expensive etc...the fall's going to happen, and then people like you wud be looking for a high rise building for a different objective.



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More jobs continue to arrive in Gurgaon (none / 0) (#44)
by vinodchopra on Sat Oct 14, 2006 at 12:51:12 AM EST

Earlier one person said that it was hell to commute to Gurgaon for the past 8 years.

That's correct. That's why some people (more every day) shifted to Gurgaon. Now our commuting hell is only for 20 min a day. Once we've got past the two highways, commuting is a breeze.

But if you live in Delhi the commuting is hell all day! The whole of Delhi is a queue - a never ending traffic jam.

Gurgaon is the most enjoyable place to live in NCR. With the additional jobs, new houses, new entertainment centres, etc. there will be a lot of competition to provide better entertainment and lifestyle in the future. The people here can afford to pay premium for good quality.

I read of a youngster with 2 yrs work-ex, earning a (mere!) 15L a year and complaining of how he can't aford to buy a flat. Imagine how much he will earn in another 2 years - and then in 15. My friend, if you're starting at 15L, you'll be hitting 50L in 10 years! Then you'll be buying these flats by the dozen! As are many of the senior execs in your company. And in the hundreds of companies in Gurgaon.

I'm enjoying being invested in Gurgaon. But I'm enjoying much more living in this town. It's not very well planned or well managed - like the rest of this country. But the residents here are fighting to make it better - much more than anywhere else in the country. I think they will succeed in getting good governance before the rest of India.



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Public archiving will make real estate honest (none / 0) (#40)
by saratdayal on Thu Oct 12, 2006 at 12:56:00 PM EST

The Indian real estate market, to the best of my knowledge, does not have a transparent and public archiving service that documents all past transactions and all new inventory brought to the market. You guessed it. I am alluding to two entities in the US that keep the real estate market fair and prices tied to supply and demand, as they should be. The two entities are: a)the tax collector's database, which any Tom, Dick and Harry can access to find out what a certain house actually sold for; and b)the Multiple Listing Service that tells all realtors and even end users the price and specs of homes being offered on the open market. Since both of these databases are transparent to the public, there is absolutely no way realtors or builders can band together to rig the pricing.

For any market to function efficiently, without any human interference, the market needs to provide the buyers transparency and accurate information. A "haat" or "mandi" are perfect markets, for example. If you go to the "sabzi mandi" with your "jhola," the vendors cannot form a nexus to rip you off. You know what the going price of any product is because the prices are all out in the open. If one fellow tries to jack up the price, the vendor next to him will get the sale.

India needs open access databases in the real estate market. I know there is the hidden market of black money that cannot be made transparent, but there are statistical norms in everything. If you even knew the white portion, let's say, on a hundred different transactions for a 4-bedroom apartment in a given area over the last 3 months, you can apply an average ratio of black to white and arrive at a sensible full price.

Until the real estate market gets fully documented, archived and accessible to all, it will continue to be manipulated by special interest groups.


SDayal
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Market will find way (none / 0) (#37)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Oct 08, 2006 at 08:53:05 AM EST

No point trying to prove a point either way.

If you can buy and you think price or need is great, you will buy.

If you are an investor who thinks the prices will not go up and cannot bear the interest expense ticking you will sell.

While closely following the US housing markets, i have realised all the pundits are wrong in their assessment of the situation and the market has its own way of behaving.

And a lesson from stock markets/ housing markets world over, there is nothing like Soft Landing.



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it dosent work that way (none / 0) (#33)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 08:52:00 PM EST

whom are u trying to fool?
yourself because u are overinvested, or r u planning to scare people into buying.
u cant scare people into buying anymore, because even nri's like myself simply cant AFFORD it anymore.



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Property Prices in Gurgaon --- falling is NONSENSE (none / 0) (#30)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 07:40:17 PM EST

U guys dont have any COMMON SENSE.

LETS TAKE A OBJECTIVE VIEW FOR A MINUTE ...

Minimum Price in Delhi 6000 psf +++

Total number of people in Delhi ---40-50 lacs+++

Minimum Price in GURGAON 2500 - 3000 psf

Max Price in Gurgaon around 6000 psf +++

Total number of people in Gurgaon 5 lacs +++

SO, even if 10 % of Delhi decided to sell their properties in Delhi at the MINIMUM PRICE, THEY CAN AFFORD EVEN THE MAXIMUM PRICE IN GURGAON AND GURGAON WILL HAVE TO DOUBLE IN SIZE TO ACCOMODATE THEM which is again NOT POSSIBLE so this 50000 + apartments that are coming up in Gurgaon in the next 1-3 years are NOTHING --- IF IT WAS 5 LACS APARTMENTS IN THE NEXT 3 Years THEN THE PRICE WOULD COME DOWN

FOR NOW PRICE WILL KEEEP ON INCREASING...

So lets STOP THIS NONSENSE, SHALL WE

---An Onjective View



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looks like you are blind !! (none / 0) (#39)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Oct 08, 2006 at 11:53:12 AM EST

open your eyes Mr. as per your view.. there are many buyers and less apartments.. can you tell me simply one thing .. why most of these apartments are vacant and why the property delears are killing mosquitos. there are several aparments ready to sell from last 6-12 months and despite of several Ads they are not able to sell.. open your eyes and learn econimics theory..


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You must be sitting in US (none / 0) (#38)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Oct 08, 2006 at 08:56:49 AM EST

If you are not , a visit to Dwarka can prove the point that you can buy as many society flats as possible for 2500-3000 psf.  The vacancy factor shows that.

In some respects Dwarka is better off than Gurgaon

  1. Connectivity to Delhi through Metro and Roads
  2. Connectivity to Gurgaon through NH-8.
  3. Better planned, you can see the sector roads to to prove that.
  4. Segregation of commercial and residential plots. Gurgaon is Master Plan disaster.

So why you think Gurgoan is under priced.



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Time for Gandhigiri (none / 0) (#28)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 10:25:22 AM EST

Gandhi has resorted to non cooperation movement to protect against the unfair rules of the British.

Today the time has come to protest against the profiteering by Builders / speculators alike. No one questions their right to make decent profits but what has been happening in Gurgaon is sheer loot.

Let us so Called End Users ( Brokers do not think much of us anyway) decide that we will not actively participate in looking for to purchase apartments for a period of 6 months and will respond to any queries.

The builders and speculators should understand where it hurts. Unless we all get together this loot will continue and Gurgaon will keep heading for unplanned development where no normal person can afford a flat.



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let them profiteer (none / 0) (#29)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 11:05:12 AM EST

let them - nobody makes super normal profits for long.



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RATES OF FLATS IN SECTOR 56 GURGAON (none / 0) (#27)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 05:38:10 AM EST

CAN SOMEONE TELL ME THE CURRENT RATE (IN PER SQUARE FEET)OF SOCIETY FLATS IN SECTOR 56  GURGAON.

IS THIS RATE LIKELY TO COME DOWN IN NEXT 2-3 MONTHS ?



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bubble to burst! (none / 0) (#25)
by Unregistered Visitors on Thu Oct 05, 2006 at 02:25:08 PM EST

Sell ! Sell! Sell! before bubble bursts.


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exotica (none / 0) (#22)
by Unregistered Visitors on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 10:30:15 AM EST

Exotica is available at4300.are you a direct buyer or a broker.I want no brokers as they do not give cash down.



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sell it.. (none / 0) (#23)
by Unregistered Visitors on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 05:40:31 AM EST

at this price..exotica is by parsavnath ..what does this builder have to show before this except lot of projects being built..If it was good it would have sold out but still in the market it is available..?
All it can show is a gaudy demo apartment..
At 4300 it is okay.



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Some one said it well in onepost (none / 0) (#14)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 10:34:47 AM EST


Its only a hype.
how is it possible that exotica price is 6000 by the builder and its availbsale at 4300.

raheja price is 4700 by the builder (witha annoncement of 5500)and no one is buying it even at 4000.
More over its access to NH8 is also blocked.

Harmony is not sold on the prelaunch at 4500 and fresco is again prelaunched at 4800.
Its amzing that close which should be available earlier is not sellable at 3500.CLOSE, fresco 1 ,harmony, Fresco2 are same specs (nearly) all available and all have differnt prices 3400, 3800, 4500 and 4800. Its funny and scandolous.

Exotica avalable at 2100 in Jan and now at 4300 builder price 6000.Scandolous.



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Its truely shit (none / 0) (#17)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 10:59:27 PM EST

This post has open my eyes.I was about to close a deal for exotica at 4300 and now i donot think that its worth it.2100 in Dec shit!


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broken promises (none / 0) (#6)
by Unregistered Visitors on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 02:36:05 AM EST

Its a common problem with builders (unitech is also not 100% fair but better).
Look at Raheja Atlantis. They promosied an access to their property from NH8. But now that raod is closed as they are not getting an approval from NHAI.

This was the USP of this project and now its gone.

Unitech showed a fantastic sample flat Uniworld city.

The delivered unit was 70% of what sample flat was.

The Exotica was promosid much earlier than what the builder is now giving (if he gives).

This a builder world and we the customers are no one.



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Unitech Uniworld City (none / 0) (#47)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 10:56:17 PM EST

The delivered units are about 50% of thr sample flat quality!


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why Gurgaon will fall and overall NCR will rise... (none / 0) (#5)
by win1975 on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 08:10:11 PM EST

  1. Indian economy is an emerging economy.
  2. as per "economist" will be 4 highest in GDP by 2040.
  3. The above article applies to Gurgaon and US only. as gurgaon is the only overpriced place compared to its infrastructure.
  4. Greater Noida, Noida, Faridabad are still underpriced considering their potential and infrastructure viz Gurgaon.
  5. 1000 acres proposed to be bought by Japanese in G. Noida
  6. Honda Siel further buying 450 acres in G. Noida.
  7. Nehar Par Faridabad cheapest in NCR even cheaper than Bhiwadi etc...
  8. Greater Noida may probably be far ahead of US in many areas apart from initial hiccups of electricity problems.... but Dadri power plant is round the corner now....
  9. Interest rates will start coming down as they have stabilised now, this may be in a couple of months.... (as per articles in many newspapers)
  10. When the vast population of India starts getting prosperous thanks to India story reverberating round the world, they will need houses, residential land. This vast segment of population is now in crammed up areas, many in jhuggis....India becomes a super power do u think these people will always remain where they are....
Of course they will not buy posh apartments but at least basic decent housing..... this will increase demand dramatically....
  1. Commonwealth games in 2010 in East Delhi.
  2. FNG expressway to connect G.Noida, Noida with Faridabad
  3. Kalindi kunj connectivity for Faridabad
  4. Badarpur flyover
  5. International airport in Greater Noida
  6. Wipro, NIIT, ST in Greater Noida. Wipro has 250 acres. setting up a center for 10,000 people. Can some other company beat that in NCR.
  7. Other major manufacturing hubs other than Maruti there in Greater Noida.
  8. India steaming ahead in manufacturing and engineering areas also in the world.
  9. New Delhi is no longer regarded the only posh location and desirable address to have.
  10. In our day to day lives how many living in GG, Noida, G.Noida, Fbd, Gzb need to go to Delhi. Who needs Delhi.... Its just psychological. So the cheaper areas around Delhi will rise. And the ones which have infrastructure will rise dramatically... There is no infrastructure in Gurgaon and no scope left. Beleive me I have been working in Gurgaon for last 8 years and its a living hell to commute to it and from anywhere....
  11. There are more points but I am tired of typing... the above gentleman merely copy pasted the article.... These points are home grown facts and observations which are more applicable than some obscure US article.....
Considering these above points, I guess most people will understand writing on the wall.



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hmmmmmm (none / 0) (#1)
by Unregistered Visitors on Mon Sep 25, 2006 at 11:24:36 AM EST

prices are increasing and demand is decreasing. one of them is wrong !!! its against demand supply rule . you seems to be a proud investor. if its true , have sweet dreams !!


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yeah and u seem to be a loser so keep waiting !!! (none / 0) (#2)
by Unregistered Visitors on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 02:17:40 AM EST




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read this and tell who is looser !! (none / 0) (#3)
by Unregistered Visitors on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 01:14:55 PM EST

following is article from US... most of them apply to india.. atleast main cause and math is to be considered..

US housing crash continues....
Why?

Prices disconnected from fundamentals. House prices are far beyond any historically known relationship to rents or salaries. Rents are less than half of mortgage payments. Salaries cannot cover mortgages except in the very short term, by using adjustable interest-only loans.

Interest rates going back up. When rates go from 5% to 7%, that's a 40% increase in the amount of interest a buyer has to pay. House prices must drop proportionately to compensate.
82% of recent Bay Area loans are adjustable, not fixed. This means a big hit to the finances of many owners every time interest rates go up, and this will only get worse as more adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs) get adjusted upward. Nationally, about $2 trillion of ARMS will adjust their rates to much higher levels this year and next.

A flood of risky adjustable rate "home equity loans". Just like the bad primary ARM loans, these loans do not have fixed interest rates. When the interest rate adjusts upward, it can double monthly payments, forcing owners to sell.

Massive job loss. More than 300,000 jobs are gone from Bay Area since the dot-com bubble popped. This is the worst percentage job loss in the last 60 years. It's worse than Detroit car problems or Houston's oil bust. People without jobs do not buy houses and owners without jobs may lose the house they are in. Even the threat of losing a job inhibits house purchases. Santa Clara County posted its fourth straight year of job losses in 2005, so it's not over yet.

Salary declines. From <a href="http://www.mccallstaffing.com/need/needsal.html">http://www.mccallstaffing.com/need/needsal.html</a> we hear that "salaries have in fact returned to 1997 and 1998 levels." Local household incomes are not even half of what they need to be to sustain current house prices.

Population loss. San Francisco continues to lose population at the fastest rate of any city in the US and most of those are professional jobs. The problem is not only the dot-com crash, but also the outsourcing technical jobs to India, which continues as corporations realize they can pay an Indian only 20% of what they must pay a similarly qualified employee in the Bay Area. Fewer people in the Bay Area means less demand for housing. It recently cost $3623 to rent a UHaul from San Jose to the midwest, but only $1800 to move the other way. This is because far more people are moving out of the Bay Area than are moving in.

Extreme use of leverage. Leverage means using debt to amplify gain. Most people forget that losses get amplified as well. If a buyer puts 10% down and the house goes down 10%, he has lost 100% of his money on paper. If he has to sell due to job loss, he's bankrupt in the real world. Even a small price decline will bankrupt buyers with small equity. Buyers foolish enough to buy with no money down are already bankrupt, but still unaware of the fact.
House prices do not even have to fall to cause big losses. The cost of selling a house is six percent. On a $600,000 house, that's $36,000 lost even if prices just stay flat.

Shortage of first-time buyers. According to the California Association of Realtors, the percentage of Bay Area buyers who could afford a median-price house in the region plunged from 20 percent in July 2003 to 14 percent in July 2004. Strangely, the CAR then reported that affordability fell another 4 percent in 2005, yet claims affordability is still at 14%.

Surplus of speculators. Nationally, 25% of houses bought in 2005 were pure speculation, not houses to live in. It is now possible to buy a house with 103% financing. The extra 3% is to cover closing costs, so the buyer needs no money down. All this is on the unwise assumption that housing will rise ever higher, covering interest payments through appreciation. Even the National Association of House Builders admits that "Investor-driven price appreciation looms over some housing markets."

Lightbulbs going on in many brains in the Bay Area: "Hey, I can move to New Mexico or Oregon, buy a gorgeous house outright, and comfortably retire on the price difference. My neighbors just did it, so I'll have friends there too."

Trouble at the builders. They are being forced to drop prices even faster than owners. They overbuilt and have huge excess inventory that they cannot sell at current prices.

Trouble at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They are being forced to tighten up sloppy lending. This means they are not going to keep buying very low-quality loans from banks, and the total money available for buying houses is falling.

The best summary explanation, from Business Week: "Today's housing prices are predicated on an impossible combination: the strong growth in income and asset values of a strong economy, plus the ultra-low rates of a weak economy. Either the economy's long-term prospects will get worse or rates will rise. In either scenario, housing will weaken. Caveat emptor."
Who disagrees
that house prices will continue to fall? Real estate related businesses disagree, because they don't make money if buyers do not buy. These businesses have a large financial interest in misleading the public about the foolishness of buying a house now.
Buyers' agents get nothing if there is no sale, so they want their clients to wildly overbid, the exact opposite of the buyer's best interest. Agents take $100 billion each year in commissions from buyers. Agents claim the seller pays the commission, but always fail to mention that the seller gets that money from the buyer.
Mortgage brokers take a percentage of the loan, so they want buyers to take out the biggest loan possible.
Appraisers need mortgage brokers for their business, so they are going to give the appraisals that brokers and agents want to see, not the truth.
Banks get origination fees but sell most mortgages, so they do not care about the potential bankruptcy of borrowers, and will lend far beyond what buyers can afford. Banks sell most loans to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. The conversion of low-quality housing debt into "high" quality Fannie Mae debt with the implicit backing of the federal government is the main support for the housing bubble. That is ending as Fannie Mae shrinks.
Even for the "jumbo" loans that banks cannot sell to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, they have a motive to lend beyond what buyers can afford. Banks designate interest as "income" whether they receive it or not. As long as borrowers do not actually default, additional interest owed is counted as bank income, and banks can claim higher "earnings". That is going to end when those borrowers cannot even make the principal payments.

Newspapers earn money from advertising placed by Realtors®, so papers have a strong motive to publish the Realtors'® unrealistic forecasts.
Worse, Realtors® have a near-monopoly on sale price information, and newspaper reporters never ask Realtors® hard questions like "how do we know you're not lying about those prices?" The result is an endless stream of stories which quote David Lereah of the NAR playing down the crash, as if there were some news in hearing salesmen say you should give them your money. To be optimistic about this market takes a real estate "professional". Everyone else speaks the truth too clearly.

Owners themselves do not want to believe they are going to lose huge amounts of money.
What are their arguments?

"There are great tax advantages to owning."
FALSE. It is much cheaper to rent a house in the San Francisco Bay Area than it is to own that same house, even with the deductibility of mortgage interest figured in. It is possible to rent a good house for $1800/month. That same house would cost about $700,000. Assume 6% interest we can see that a buyer loses at least $4,936 per month by buying. Renting is a loss of course, but buying is a much bigger loss.
Renting:
    Rent:           $1,800
    ----------------------
    Monthly Loss:   $1,800

Buying:
    Property Tax:     $486 ($729 per month at 1.25% before deduction, $486 lost after deduction.)
    Interest:       $2,333 ($3500 per month at 6% before deduction, $2333 lost after deduction.)
    Other Costs:      $450 (Insurance, maintenance, long commute, etc.)
    Principal loss: $1,667 (Modest 3% yearly loss on $700,000. Reality will be much worse.)
    ----------------------
    Monthly Loss:   $4,936

This is a very conservative estimate of the loss from owning per month. If you include a realistic decline in house prices, as in this rent-vs-own calculator, you'll see that owning right now is a very poor choice.
Here's a more optimistic calculator which ignores price changes entirely.

Remember that buyers do not deduct interest from income tax; they deduct interest from taxable income. Interest is paid in real pre-tax dollars that buyers suffered to earn. That money is really entirely gone, even if the buyer didn't pay income tax on those dollars before spending them on mortgage interest.

Buyers do not get interest back at tax time. If a buyer gets an income tax refund, that's just because he overpaid his taxes, giving the government an interest-free loan. The rest of us are grateful.

Under current conditions, a renter would be able to live in a Bay Area house for 30 years, then buy that $700,000 house outright with the saved principal payments and have avoided $810,846 in interest payments. Rent would be only $648,000 over those 30 years, so the renter comes out at least $162,846 ahead. See any "amortization table" if you don't believe that interest will cost more than the house. This doesn't even count the huge losses the owner will suffer as the value of his house falls year after year for the next decade or more, just as in Japan, nor does it count property taxes, insurance, and maintenance.

Rents will rise eventually, though they have been falling every year for about five years now. Rising rents should be more than offset by appreciation on the renter's saved principal payments, assuming the renter invests in index funds or any other investment that normally brings in more than a CD.

There is no need to wait 30 years to buy a house. As this crash accelerates, prices will fall to the point where it is cheaper to buy than to rent, though that could take five years or more.

If you don't own a house but want to live in one, your choice now is to rent a house or rent money to buy a house. To rent money is to take out a loan. A mortgage is a money-rental agreement. House renters take no risk at all, but money-renting owners take on the huge risk of falling house prices, as well as all the costs of repairs, insurance, property taxes, etc. It is much cheaper to rent the house than to rent the money.

There are large tax disadvanges to buying in California. Because of Proposition 13, it is common for new buyers to pay ten times the property tax that their neighbors pay. Tax rates are set at the time of purchase, which means those who bought long ago pay essentially nothing, and the new buyers pay all property tax for everyone else. Upgrading houses makes you a newcomer all over again.

Then there's earthquake insurance. It's really expensive, so most people just skip it and risk everything on the chance that no earthquake will happen.

"A rental house provides good income."
FALSE. Rental houses provide very poor income in the Bay Area and certainly cannot cover mortgage payments. A $1,000,000 house can be rented out for at most $25,000 per year after expenses. The return is therefore 2.5% with no liquidity and a huge risk of loss.
If you actually have a million dollars, you can get better than 5% with no risk, no work, and no state income tax by buying a US Treasury Bond. And your money will be liquid and secure.

"OK, owning is a loss in monthly cash flow, but appreciation will make up for it."
FALSE. Appreciation is negative. Prices are going down, which just adds insult to the monthly injury of crushing mortgage payments.

"House prices never fall."
FALSE. San Francisco house prices dropped 11 percent between 1990 and 1994. This means that people who bought in SF in 1990 probably did not break even in dollar amounts until about 1998. So those buyers effectively loaned their money to the sellers for 8 years at no interest, losing all the while to inflation. With inflation, 1990 buyers truly broke even only about the year 2000, ten years after buying.
Los Angeles' average house plummeted 21 percent from 1991 to 1995. But the current crash looks to be even worse than that one because so many people are in over their heads.

"House prices don't fall to zero like stock prices, so it's safer to invest in real estate."
FALSE. It's true that house prices do not fall to zero, but your equity in a house can easily fall to zero, and then way past zero into the red. Even a fall of only 10% completely wipes out everyone who has only 10% equity in their house. This means that house price crashes are actually worse than stock crashes. Most people have most of their money in their house, and that money is highly leveraged.

"We know it will be a soft landing, since it says so in the papers."
FALSE. Prices could fall off a cliff. No one knows exactly what will happen, but the risk of a sudden crash in prices is severe. As Yale professor Robert Shiller has pointed out, this housing bubble is the biggest bubble in history, ever. Predictions of a "soft landing" are just more manipulation of buyer emotions, to get them to buy even while prices are falling.
Most newspaper articles on housing are not news at all. They are advertisements that are disguised to look like news. They quote heavily from people like Realtors®, whose income depends on separating you from your money. Their purpose is not to inform, but rather to get you to buy.

"If you buy, at least you have a house, but if you rent, you end up with nothing."
FALSE. Renters in the Bay Area end up with much more money, while living in the same quality house as an owner. At the end of 30 years, a renter would have enough principal saved to buy the $700K house mentioned above and would have spent $162,846 less on rent than he would have spent in interest payments. And he would have lived in an equivalent house all that time. Owners frequently end up with nothing because they lose the house to foreclosure.

"Prices have been driven by supply and demand."
FALSE. Supply is increasing rapidly as building continues, and demand is falling as the population of the Bay Area decreases and the salaries of those who remain decreases. Prices have been driven by low interest rates and increasingly risky loans. The dramatic drop in rents and widespread rental vacancies prove that demand for housing is actually much lower now than a few years ago.
The www.census.gov site has data for Santa Clara County for the years 2000-2003 which shows that the number of housing units went up at the same time that the population decreased:

year  units   people
2000 580868 / 1686474 = 0.344 housing units per person
2001 587013 / 1692299 = 0.346
2002 592494 / 1677426 = 0.353
2003 596526 / 1678421 = 0.355

So housing supply in Santa Clara County increased 3% per person during those years. There is an oversupply compared to a few years ago. In a sane market, prices should fall 3% to compensate for the extra supply of housing.
At a national level, there is a similar story in the years 2000 to 2005:

2000 115.9M / 281M = 0.412 housing units per person
2005 124.6M / 295M = 0.422

At a national level, there is 2.4% more housing per person now than in 2000. So national prices should have fallen as well.
Banks caculated that risky loans were offset by rising prices, allowing them to recover their money from bad borrowers through foreclosure. Now that prices are falling, those risky loans cannot be justified. If the borrower does not pay, the sale price of the house will not cover the loan. Banks now have a real incentive to improve lending standards, and that will lower house prices more because fewer people will qualify for loans.

"They aren't making any more land."
TRUE, but sales volume has fallen 40% in the last year. Apparently, they aren't making any more buyers, either.

"As a renter, you have no opportunity to build equity."
FALSE. Renters are actually in a better position to build equity because:
Owers are losing every month on a cash flow basis. The tax deduction does not come close to making owning competitive with renting.
Owers are losing principal in a leveraged way as prices decline. A 20% decline completely wipes out all the equity of "owners" who actually own only 20% of their house.
Owers must pay taxes simply to own a house. That is not true of stocks, bonds, or any other asset that can build equity. Only houses are such a guaranteed drain on cash.
Owers must insure a house, but not most other investments.
Owers must pay to repair a house, but not a stock or a bond.

"If you rent you are a buyer. You are just buying it for someone else."
FALSE. It may be true that rent covers mortgage payments in other places, but not in the Bay Area. No one buys with the intention to rent out in the Bay Area because that's not viable. The owner is generously subsidizing the renter, a wonderful thing for renters during this crash.

"If you don't own, you'll live in a dump in a bad neighborhood."
FALSE. For the any given monthly payment, you can rent a far better house than you can buy. Renters live better, not worse. All the best neighborhoods have rental vacancies. There are downsides to renting, but since there are thousands of vacant rentals, you can take your pick and be quite happy renting during the crash.
You may worry about being forced to move, but the law says the landlord has to offer you a one year lease at a minimum, and they'll probably be delighted to offer you a two year lease and give you a discount for that. Other people want the mobility that renting affords. Renters can usually get out of a lease and move anywhere they want within one month, with no real estate commission.

It is much easier and cheaper to rent a house in a good school district in the Bay Area than to buy a house in the same place.

The biggest upside is hardly ever mentioned: renters can choose a short commute by living very close to work or to the train line. An extra two hours every day of free time not wasted commuting is the best bonus you can ever get.

"Owners can change their houses to suit their tastes."
FALSE. Even single family detached housing is often restricted by CC&Rs and House Owner's Associations (HOAs). Imagine having to get the approval of some picky neighbor on the "Architectural Review Board" every time you want to change the color of your trim. Yet that's how most houses are sold these days.
In California, the HOA can and will foreclose on your house without a judicial hearing. They can fine you $100/day for leaving your garage door open, and then take your house away if you refuse to pay. There's a good HOA blog here.

"People buy a house for the long term, so things can't crash quickly."
FALSE. People are now buying houses for the very short term. This is how they justify interest-only adjustable mortgages to themselves. The thinking is, "I will own this just long enough to make a profit, maybe a year or two, so there's no need to get a long term loan at a higher interest rate." The distinction between the long-term owner and the short-term flipper has gone away.

"If and when the market goes south, you can walk away."
FALSE. If you have a single loan with just the house as collateral, it may be a "non-recourse" loan, meaning you could indeed walk and not lose anything other than your house and any equity in it (along with your credit record). But if you refinance or take a "home equity loan", the new loan is probably a recourse loan, and the bank can get very aggressive, not to mention what the IRS can do. A reader who lived through the 1989 housing crash in LA pointed out the following nasty situation that can happen:
Let's say you buy a house for $600,000, with a $500,000 mortgage.
Then the house drops in value to $400,000, you lose your job, or otherwise must move.
If you can't make your payments, the bank forecloses on you and nets $350,000 on the sale of your house.
The bank's $150,000 loss on the mortgage is "forgiveness of debt" in the eyes of the IRS, and effectively becomes $150,000 of reportable income you must pay tax on.
It is true that buyers who put zero down and have nothing invested in the house are much more likely to walk away. The large number of new uninvested buyers increases the risk of a horrifying crash in prices rather than a "soft landing".

"The house down the street sold for 25% over asking, and that proves the market is still hot."
FALSE. Realtors® try to create the false impression of a hot market by deliberately "underpricing" a house. Say a seller's agent knows that house will probably go for $500,000. He places ads asking $400,000 instead. (Bait-and-switch is illegal when selling toasters, but apparently not when selling houses.) The goal is to first of all prevent buyers from knowing what a realistic price is, and secondly to get buyers to blindly bid against each other. There are four players in this game and three of them are against the buyer: the seller, the seller's agent, and the buyer's agent. Yes, the buyer's own agent works against the buyer, because there is no commission if there is no sale. There's a saying in Las Vegas: "There's a patsy in every game, and if you don't know who the patsy is, you're it."
If you want to prove your agent is not on your side, ask to see houses "for sale by owner" or houses listed by discount brokers.

Update: the underpricing game is now over. You are free to bid far lower than the asking price. You might be pleasantly surprised to find out how desperate the sellers are.

"I was lucky that my Realtor® told me to increase my bid by $100,000. Otherwise I would have lost, because my Realtor® knew about a secret bid $90,000 above mine."
FALSE. Your agent gets paid nothing if you don't buy the house, and he gets more if you waste more money by bidding too high. Those are two big motives to invent false bids.

"The MLS proves things are great."
FALSE. All sorts of funny things happen in the MLS (Multiple Listing Service, a private database controlled by real estate agents). For example, if a house just doesn't sell, Realtors® can remove its record in the MLS so that you cannot see that it failed to sell. Then the house comes back on the market at a lower price, and unsuspecting buyers think it's on the market for the first time. Their Realtor® can "prove" it's a new listing by showing the MLS record to the buyer: "See, here's the listing date, just came on the market. Better hurry and buy it, this one is hot."
There is nobody checking that the MLS shows true transaction prices. The MLS prices are often just wrong.

Furthermore, the MLS will not list any house for sale by owner or for sale through a discount broker, except perhaps those listed by Help u Sell. Those cheaper prices are just not in the system, because if you save money, they lose money.

"The Bay Area is a special place that will always be expensive."
TRUE, but it was just as special ten years ago, so that does not account for the current housing bubble. Even at half of current prices, it will still be expensive.
Many people are confused about the difference between high prices and increasing prices. Prices are high, but they are not increasing. They are falling. Falling prices make housing a bad investment.

"Rich Chinese (or Europeans, or Arabs) are driving up housing prices."
FALSE. The percentage of US houses bought by rich foreigners is tiny. Furthermore, American housing is clearly a bad investment at this point. Foreigners can just wait and watch both the dollar and American housing continue to fall, and then buy for much less in a few years. Rich foreign investors are not dumb enough to buy into a badly overpriced market, but your broker is hoping that you are.

"There's always someone predicting a Bay Area real estate crash."
TRUE, yet irrelevant. There are very real crashes every decade or so. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

"But housing was high when interest rates were 21%."
FALSE. Inflation was much higher then, so fixed debt was easier to pay off with increasing salaries. Now we have adjustible mortgages and stagnant salaries.
House price increases exactly mirror the increase in mortgage debt. According to the Washington Times: "Consumers have doubled their mortgage debt from $3.5 trillion to $7 trillion since 1996, borrowing and spending profusely on the assumption that house prices will keep rising." So the increase in house prices is not backed by assets. It's backed by debt. The debt in turn is backed by the houses. It's just smoke and mirrors.

"My dad made money on his house, and it will work for me too."
FALSE. Your dad bought his house when houses were cheap compared to salaries, maybe 3 or 4 times annual salaries. Go ask him. Things are different now. Here is a chart of median house price vs median income in Palo Alto:
Year  Median House Price    Median Income   Multiple
1980        148900              24743        6.0
1990        457800              55333        8.3
2000        910000              90377       10.0

Most bankers use a multiple of 3 as a "safe" price to income ratio. We are well beyond the danger zone, into the twilight zone. Another rule of thumb is that a fair house price is 200 times the monthly rent. If a house rents for $2000 per month, then a fair price is $400,000.
Since interest rates are now about 6%, yearly rents should also be about 6% of the value of the house. At most times and most places, it was more expensive to rent. This was how the landlord made a profit. So yearly interest should be lower than yearly rent, to make it profitable to be a landlord.

"Look, housing continued to rise after the dot-com crash, so it will always rise."
FALSE, consider the turkey in the farmer's barnyard. He thinks the farmer will always come feed him and not ask for anything. Then Thanksgiving comes. Whack. Past performance is no indication of future results.

"Rent can go up, but a 30-year fixed mortgage payment cannot."
TRUE, but irrelevant. House owners lose even with a fixed mortgage, because the price of a house falls as interest rates go up. Most people want to sell within 7 years of moving in, and many have to sell because of job loss, illness, or divorce. No one can afford what the owner paid for it, so the owner has to take a large loss. Renting it out will not come close to covering the mortgage. Bay Area rents have fallen 23% in the last 4 years.

"You have to live somewhere."
TRUE, but that doesn't mean you should waste your life savings on a bad investment. You can live in the same kind of house by renting during the crash. A renter could save hundreds of thousands of dollars, not only by paying less every month, but by avoiding the devastating loss of his downpayment. In fact, it's currently cheaper to live in a nice hotel in most parts of the US than it is to make mortgage payments in the Bay Area.

"Newspaper articles prove prices are not falling."
FALSE. The numbers in the papers are not complete and have murky origins. Those prices are "estimated" from the county transfer tax and making that tax public record is optional. A buyer who does not want you to see how little he paid has only to ask to put the transfer tax on the back of the deed and it will not show up on computer searches of the deed, which show only the front. Others voluntarily pay more tax than they have to, in order to inflate the apparent price to fool the next buyer. At a tax rate of about $1 per thousand of sale price, as in San Mateo county, you have to pay only $100 extra tax to make your purchase price look $100,000 higher.
Even though you can in theory go to your county building and get sale price information, in reality the county will give it to you in a painfully slow and inconvenient way. For example, in Redwood City's county building there are PC's where you can look at data for any particular house, but you cannot print, you cannot save to a floppy disk, you cannot email data out. All you can do is write things down manually, one at a time. And that's how real estate interests like it. Your elected representatives are serving them, not you.

Builders do not want to annoy buyers who recently purchased houses from them by dropping the selling price up front. That would be bad for business. Instead, the builder throws in large free extras, such as a swimming pool, rather than drop the price by $20,000 or $50,000. Listing agents encourage this because they get paid based on selling price. A higher price means a higher comission, no matter what the effective rebate really was.

"My appraisal proves what my house is worth."
FALSE. "An appraisal in its typical residential real estate form is little more than a comparative analysis conducted by someone with no skin in the game offering confirmation that other lemmings are paying too much for their houses as well." -from an article on morningstar.com
Amazingly, government house price measures do not include houses with mortgages greater than $417,000. This excludes well over half of all houses in California. So the government can report a slight price rise, but fail to mention that prices actually fell for the other 60% of houses in California.

"It's not a house, it's a home."
FALSE. It's a house. Wherever one lives is home, be it apartment, condo, or house. Calling a house a "home" is a manipulation of your emotions for profit.
As a Realtor® said to me, "a house is a wooden box that sits out in the rain and slowly deteriorates. No one would buy in this market if they really thought about it rationally. That's why we have to sell them a home, not a house."

Also, Realtor® is a commercial term, not a real word. Note the "®" symbol.

"If you don't buy now, you'll never get another chance."
FALSE. This argument was also popular in 1989 in Los Angeles, just before a huge crash. It is silly. If no one like you ever gets another chance to buy a house, then you will not be able to sell your house in a few years either, because, hey, there will be no more buyers like you, ever.
Here is a great quote from June Fletcher, a Wall Street Journal reporter, that says it all: "The real issue isn't whether you will be stuck being a renter all your life, she says. Its whether you'll get so scared about being shut out that you'll buy at the market's peak and be stuck in a property you can't afford or sell."

"Property in the Bay Area is a luxury good, and so will be less affected by economic downturns."
FALSE. 82% of last year's Bay Area mortgages were ARMs, and ARM loans are not taken out by the rich. People on the border of bankruptcy take out ARMs because they can't afford fixed rate loans. The rich don't have loans at all.
Many of these ARM loans have exceptionally deadly repayment terms, and so are known as "neutron mortgages". Like the neutron bomb, they destroy people, but leave buildings standing. They are also known as "suicide loans".

"Housing will be permanently higher since downpayments are now obsolete."
FALSE. The first big wave of default will cause downpayments to suddenly seem like a good idea again. Lending standards are already improving.

"House ownership is at a record high, proving things are affordable."
FALSE. The percentage of their house that most Americans actually own is at a record low, not a high. We do have a record number of people who have title to a house because they have dangerous levels of mortgage debt, but that is no cause to celebrate.

"California houses are worth whatever fools will pay for them."
FALSE. At interest rates of 6%, houses are worth about 16 times what you can rent them out for per year. Since typical house rent is about $24,000 per year in the Bay Area, the typical house is worth about $384,000, not $700,000.
Another rule of thumb is that houses are worth about three times the median household salary of an area. Let's say four times the median salary because this is a desirable area. Since the median household income is under $70,000, the value of a typical house is under $280,000. Again, not even close to $700,000.

"The limited land in the Bay Area means prices will always go up."
FALSE. Japan has a very severe land shortage, but that hasn't stopped prices from falling for 14 years straight. Prices there are now at the same level they were 23 years ago. If we really had a housing shortage, rents would be similar to mortgage costs. They are not even half that much.

"It would take another 911 terrorist attack or a major earthquake that wipes out this area in order for the price to fall by 50%."
FALSE. Even with a 50% decline in prices to $350,000 or so, the median price in the Bay Area will still be roughly double the median price in most of America, and the median Bay Area household income of about $70,000 will still not be sufficient to buy a house. So a 50% decline is well justified by the fundamentals.

"Housing is a hedge against inflation, so you should buy now anyway."
FALSE. Interest rates go up with inflation, and higher interest will be the last straw for ARM mortgages in the Bay Area. Their defaults and foreclosures will drive down the cost of housing for everyone else around here. Remember that 82% of recent Bay Area mortgages were adjustable. There is little chance that salaries of ARM owners can keep up with inflation because of two billion people in India and China who would be happy to do their jobs for much less money.

"Houses always increase in value in the long run."
FALSE. House values are actually constant. Adjusted for inflation, prices in Holland, for example, rose less than one quarter of one percent annually in the 350 years since their tulip bubble. Warren Buffett and Charles Schwab have both pointed out that houses don't produce anything. They do not increase in intrinsic value. Unless there's a bubble, house prices simply reflect current salaries and interest rates. Consider a 100 year old house. Its value in sheltering you is exactly the same as it was 100 years ago. It did not increase in value at all. It did not spontaneously get bigger, or renovate itself. Quite the opposite - the house drained cash from its owners for 100 years of maintenance and taxes. Its price went up about as much as salaries went up.
My grandmother always used to complain about the cost of milk. "Why, when I was a girl, a gallon of milk cost a dime! Just look at how much people are overcharging for milk now." I asked her how much people got paid back then. "Oh, about $15 a week", came the reply. Hmmm, sounds very much like the reasoning people use now when they talk about how much their father's house appreciated "in the long run" without considering that salaries rose a proportional amount.

"Maybe we should just accept that we missed out on a great opportunity to get into the real estate in the past N years."
FALSE. Did we all miss out on a great opportunity to get into the stock of pets.com or other Internet companies with no business model? The real question is what is likely to happen in the next few years according to fundamental economics. The answer is a huge crash. The last guy to buy into the bubble will get hurt the most.

"I just want to own my own house."
TRUE, most people do and that's fine. Buyers will get their chance when housing costs half as much and they have saved a fortune by renting. House ownership is great - unless you ruin your life paying for it.
As reader Sean Olender put it: "Many people have forgotten that their number one restriction on future freedom -- to do what they want when they want and to go where they want -- the number one power over them in the future isn't the Iraqis, or Iranians, or North Koreans, it isn't the axis of evil, it's their mortgage lender."

What should you do?
If you own, consider selling so can actually keep some of that funny money that appeared out of thin air. Otherwise, it will be painful to watch it vaporize back into thin air.

If you want to buy, look around and see that house prices are falling. Why hurry to buy into a falling market? Save your cash and buy for much less in the future. Find a nice cheap rental, sit back, and enjoy the show till then.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


wow ..what a lot of data!! (none / 0) (#24)
by Unregistered Visitors on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 05:46:33 AM EST

You seem to know a lot about the usa..Good fro u..will consult u when we decide to buy there.
But gurgaon we know more.
Gurgaon I feel prices will remain stable and now correction has taken place as one reader commented.
The minimum price for apartments will remain at 2200psf and maximum may touch 7000psf.I am not counting the hype created by emaar who opened at 6000psf and offered a 19 acre complex where they are building a lot of apartment blocks and villas..Nothing new being offered..But still the name sells as I recall some years back we heard only about laburnum and the came mahindra gesco and changed the face of gurgaon apartments and everyone followed suit..
Now people want something new if they are charged a high price..



[ Parent | Reply to This ]



US Market (none / 0) (#4)
by Unregistered Visitors on Wed Sep 27, 2006 at 07:42:15 PM EST

The analysis that you have given is US analysis, where market has crashed very badly why? we all know US was passing through recession, middle east oil shekhs are taking out thier investments & now are investing in India more. 9/11 etc. are few reasons for fall in US market. If there is a similar fall in india market probably prices can fall for property too, but if there is not much fall in market, i don think, there wud be fall in prices. In india interest rates ar already high as compared to US/other countries atleast by 2-2.5%. If the same continues probably u can see more forign money coming to india leading to better INR & then again more growth & more price increase....so the cycle continues....unless there is some major setback in economy.


[ Parent | Reply to This ]


u will see yourself (none / 0) (#7)
by Unregistered Visitors on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 01:40:44 PM EST

just wait few months and you will see the show.. maths i always a math weather its US or iNdia , only values changes..  if you are true than buy few properties and  wait and watch ..


[ Parent | Reply to This ]


GDP (none / 0) (#9)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 09:06:11 AM EST

India GDP rate 8.9% per govt estimates which means 20% actual since India has parallel black money economy

US GDP rate 2.9% per govt estimates which means 2.9% actual.

Do you think 20% and 2.9% growth rates are comparable? No way !!



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Sir, may I interrupt (none / 0) (#11)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 01:58:38 PM EST

There is a little problemo with your math here...

The parallel black economy growth will NOT have an additive effect on the overall growth rate. It may be at best grow at the same rate as the white economy.

So we are still at 8.9% more or less (even after taking the black economy in account)

Thanks :)



[ Parent | Reply to This ]



see the level (none / 0) (#10)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 09:35:51 AM EST

Mr. see the level od salary in india and US , forget about GDP.  see the buying maths..


[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Mr. (none / 0) (#13)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 06:12:44 PM EST

please also consider the number of people in our country and in US. With so many people around, there will always be a huge demand for new housing.

In US, generally people take 30 years loan which is currently not available at all. Wait for 2 more years when rates out of reach then Banks will start 30 years loan in India as well and that would be the peak of real estate....Time to get out ...not now.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Number doesn't mean. (none / 0) (#15)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 11:48:50 AM EST

the number of people in US and in india doesn't have any relation with buying power. its the maths of earning ( salaries) and EMI. in US the EMi is in affordable range whereas the EMI in India has well crossed beyong limits of most of people. hence ..... rest use your brain ..


[ Parent | Reply to This ]


oh my brainy friend (none / 0) (#16)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Oct 01, 2006 at 01:02:13 PM EST

more people means more people who could buy.

oh my god, get some common sense if you could buy it from somewhere.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


hahahah (none / 0) (#18)
by Unregistered Visitors on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 07:50:27 AM EST

its you who need to buy..  more person doesn't mean they have buying power.. as per your view india has more than 1 billion person so India should have more buying power ( richest country in world) india should have more cars than US bla bla hahahhaha


[ Parent | Reply to This ]








Please don't compare India with US (none / 0) (#8)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 09:04:15 AM EST

both economies dont work same way. India is still developing and US is a saturated economy. You simply can't compare them. I don't think property prices are going to come down anytime soon in India rather its gonna keep increasing, may be at a slower rate(20-30%/annum). There is a huge inflow of FDI in India. The rates of commercial space is going to skyrocket within the next 2 years. Just wait and watch. And people who have money will make more money and people who are sitting on the edge, will continue to do so until they realize they were wrong.


[ Parent | Reply to This ]


My 2 cents (none / 0) (#12)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 02:05:09 PM EST

Totally in agreement with your observation on the commercial Real Estate...But residential real estate works a bit differently.

Typically, an end user BUYS residential Real Estate but LEASES commercial real estate...

Given the IT/ITeS and other economy sectors hungry for good office space, I believe that commercial rates will continue upwards until there is a recession in the overall economy and/or IT/ITeS...And believe me, it always comes sometime  - when expectations get ahead of themselves...But I believe we are still 3-4 years away from that...2010 will be a year to watch (when STPi scheme goes away, commonwealth games come and go, phillipines and eastern europe catch up, commercial RE is at > $2/sqft, employee salaries jumping 15% YoY till then etc. etc.)...

So buy into commercial RE now...and get out in 2008 or 2009...

Cheers...



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


it has been a global housing bubble (none / 0) (#19)
by Unregistered Visitors on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 04:20:16 AM EST

I believe that it has been a global housing bubble led by low interest rates and very high expecations. You may assume anything as an investor. But all these investors and builders need a retail buyer who will one day come to buy their investment at a premium. A RETAIL BUYER. Who will pay just a fraction of the price in cash and rest in housing loan. Will have that much of borrowing capacity to take 50-60 lac loans and pay EMI of 50k - 60k per month.That is asking too much from the indian middle class !!!
Affordability factor is going to play a very important factor. Rent to EMI ratio will decide the fate of the market. I believe indian real estate market is going to face a worse situation than the US.
We may see panic selling by these short term investors just like we saw panic buying during last two years. Market is far away from the fundamentals.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


agree with that (none / 0) (#20)
by Unregistered Visitors on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 05:30:37 AM EST

i am an iim grad -  have a ctc of 13 lakhs per year, its been 2 yrs since i passed out. i get a take home of arnd 80k a month.
arnd 8k goes in the student loan, i bought a car recently, anothr 10k goes towards that,fuel adds another 5-6k and my phn bill is anothr 3-4k. i pay rent for the house i live in, its near gold souk, its not very fancy, just a basic 2 bedroom for which the rent is thankfully 8k.
so out of the 80k, thats 35k gone and 45k left.
add a few movies, a couple of visits to tgif, some basic food requirements at home, electricity, cable,maid, some snooker on weekends, i'd estimate another minimal 7-8k thr.
left with arnd 38-40k.
let me qualify my position - i wud be amongst the higher earning people in my batch-say at the 30th percentile.

now how do i buy something in gurgaon. my entire savings amount to 5 lakhs a year, even a 50 lakh house means living with the pressure of having negligible cash for any other needs, and frankly if i'm facing this, what sort of people are buying???

i hv started becoming quite concerned with the way the house prices have gone recently.



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


And even IT is paying more (none / 0) (#32)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 07:58:57 PM EST

IT jobs are giving 15L + CTC these days in Gurgaon. IBM is recruting like crazy and Accenture is also pumping salaries. That too at 5 yrs exp.

There are lakhs of engineers/managers with this package in Gurgaon and that's how rent as well as prices are going up ..  



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Who are you kidding ?? (none / 0) (#41)
by Unregistered Visitors on Thu Oct 12, 2006 at 09:25:11 PM EST

IBM pays half the amount mentioned by you as CTC for 5year experienced people.

You talk like a typical broker.

I had gone to a broker last week and he was telling me that XYZ company has 2000 employess in Gurgaon and they plan to increase the strength to 8000 in a year.

But the fact is XYZ company has a strength of 800 and they may expand to a max of 850.

Probably that idiot did not know that I work for XYZ



[ Parent | Reply to This ]



really? (none / 0) (#34)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sat Oct 07, 2006 at 08:53:52 PM EST

mckinsey pays 14 lakhs - did u know that? u think IT firms that hire software junta will pay more??


[ Parent | Reply to This ]


It's starting salary (none / 0) (#35)
by Unregistered Visitors on Sun Oct 08, 2006 at 07:48:33 AM EST

You are comparing starting salary with a salary of 5 yrs ex. If one can survive in Mckinsey in 5 yrs and raises above associate level then his salay would be much more than 14 lakh. IT engineers are not paid as high as a premium MBA would get but they do get handsome pay packages, expendin with experience.

Correct me if I am worng !!



[ Parent | Reply to This ]





property price correction (none / 0) (#26)
by Unregistered Visitors on Thu Oct 05, 2006 at 09:08:17 PM EST

Studying from IIM does not gaurantee wealth unless you learn tricks to grow your wealth. If you are not able to afford, does not mean there is scarcity of wealth around. Use combination of time, opportunity and action..
Otherwise study from IIM does not help..



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


I sort of agree (none / 0) (#43)
by Unregistered Visitors on Fri Oct 13, 2006 at 10:03:46 PM EST

Yeah .. Media has hyped IIM too much. If you are from older IIMs ( Ahemdabad, Bangalore & Calcutta ) and studied full time 2 yr course and working in Management Consulting or Investment Banking in India or in US , then you'll be in high earning bracket. Otherwise one from IMT Ghaziabad or from IIM Luckhnow must be earning same



[ Parent | Reply to This ]


dont badmouth IIM L !! (none / 0) (#49)
by Unregistered Visitors on Wed Nov 29, 2006 at 12:49:24 PM EST

C'mon man, there is no need to badmouth any institute. a b-school degree (IIM or other top notch b schools) has many more advantages than just learning how to create wealth, or find high paying salaries. and unless u have half a dozen close friends who graduated from an IIM and also share their annual incomes with you, its not wise to comment on other people's salaries.

all of u wud have guessed by now that i studied at IIML. and have been richer for the experience - in maturity of thought process, better opportunities at career, awareness of the business world, and sheer thrill of spending two stimulating years with a bunch of intelligent minds.

back to this debate - very interesting, even the US market analysis, though it was irrelevant to the original topic. at the end of the day, the fact is that real estate in india has now enough 'players' to behave similar to stock market, and to a lesser extent, betting/ online gaming/ day trading. the prices we will see will just reflect the popular sentiments of the time. but unlike these other markets, housing in india has rarely gone down, atbest it stabilises for some time. with exponential increase in salaries in the last few years, buying powers and more importantly, the risk taking apetite of middle class has grown big time.

my vote goes to increase in property price at gurgaon in near future. sellers will always find some reason or other to keep pushing up prices and buyers will keep getting scared into buying it sooner than later. if lack of public transport couldnt stop the buyers in GG, nothing short of calamity will. wait, let me correct myself, even a calamity will only halt the juggernaut slightly. immediately afterwards, people will swoop in, trying to make a fast buck.

fact is: an average person is always trying to make a fast buck. real estate is just one of the options we gamble with.

good luck to all of you - risk takers and cautious folks alike!



[ Parent | Reply to This ]




Only one or two like you (none / 0) (#42)
by Unregistered Visitors on Thu Oct 12, 2006 at 09:28:52 PM EST

Buddy...only one or two people like you know the mantra of making wealth.

And it seems those handful of people are already invested to their neck



[ Parent | Reply to This ]













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